Episode 2 - WoodWorker Sophie Sellu on crafting a life in sustainable design

We head to the bustling and lively New Cross Rd to join woodworker and founder of Grain & Knot, Sophie Sellu, in her studio. We talk about graduating with an interior design degree in the middle of a recession and shifting from a corporate working environment to rediscovering woodworking. Developing her skills and building her woodworking brand from what started out as a relaxing hobby, Sophie has been able to craft a slower pace that allows her to spend lots of time outdoors in nature.

As a solo creative, Sophie tells us what she does to stay connected and inspired, why a career in craft can be financially and personally rewarding and how she feels about being the only mixed-race female in her creative field.

RESOURCES

Discover St. Dunstan In the East Church, a derelict oasis reclaimed by nature in the centre of London.

Visit Water Lane Walled Garden near Hawkhurst in Kent to admire the restored Victorian glasshouses, enjoy lunch and a spot of shopping.

To find out more about ADHD and diagnosis support, visit ADHD UK.

SOPHIE’S MIXTAPE

Downers by Greentea Peng

Midnight by Khruangbin

Introvert by Lil Simz

Life Will Be by Cleo Sol

CONNECT WITH SOPHIE

Explore Sophie’s seasonal wood carvings and sculptural objects.

Gain insight into Sophie’s creative process from her studio with her extremely handsome dog, Stanley over on Instagram @grainandknot.

TRANSCRIPT

Tiffany Grant-Riley [: 00:00

It's a bit like forest bathing when you come in here. It just feels really calm and relaxing.

Sophie Sellu [: 00:07

Yes, that's just the sort of space I wanted to make. I knew that, I mean, as soon as I moved in I frosted the windows just so I couldn't see what was going on outside because it would be so distracting for me. And yeah, I wanted to just have it as kind of calm and serene… (with the sirens going) past as possible! (laughs as several fire-engines rush past)

Tiffany Grant-Riley [: 00:24

It's an antidote…

Sophie Sellu [: 00:26

Wow, okay, that's like fire engine number four. There must be something big…oh dear…

[MUSIC]

Tiffany Grant-Riley [: 00:29 Intro

I'm interior photographer Tiffany Grant-Riley and you're listening to Curate and Display the Podcast, a short series podcast where we dig deep into the processes of Black and mixed-heritage creatives to talk about the highs and lows of their chosen craft, the spaces that inspire them and the music that drives them to create.

We're on the bustling New Cross Road in this episode with award-winning designer-maker Sophie Sellu of Grain and Knot. From her soothing workshop filled with her soulful, sculptural wood carvings and in the company of her faithful whippet, Stanley, we discuss her introduction to woodworking at school, the disappointment of graduating as an interior designer in the middle of a recession and how a spoon carving workshop sparked a passion for hand crafting wooden objects from storm fallen and reclaimed timber.

Recently diagnosed with ADHD, Sophie shares why she prefers to create seasonal collections and the importance of carving out a life that allows her to spend time outdoors in nature at a slower pace.

Tiffany Grant-Riley [: 01:39

Sophie, it is an absolute joy to be sitting in your studio amongst all your beautiful sculptural pieces. I have been following your journey on Instagram for a really long time so thank you for having me here.

Sophie Sellu [: 01:50

Thanks for coming down.

Tiffany Grant-Riley [: 01:52

Can you remember your first encounter with woodworking and what it is about the nature of wood that draws you in?

Sophie Sellu [: 01:59

Yeah, I did woodwork at school and it was just one of those subjects that not a lot of people chose to do. There was the option of textiles or food tech and I really wanted to do something with my hands, something that I'd never come across before so from the age of 11 we were in the woodwork shop which is brilliant and I don't know it's making something or just making things that were useful, doing something with your hands and having something to show for it at the end of the day that was usable. It was like a transferable skill.

I guess I never really thought too much about it when I was younger but it was just something that I'd never seen before that I wanted to give a try and it just, yeah, there wasn't much writing involved or reading involved. I very much sort of learn by doing so it was sort of being shown how to do something and then I could copy that and it was a lot easier than maths.

Tiffany Grant-Riley [: 02:54

There's something to be said about the uptake in people quitting quite stressful jobs to find something that gives them a slower more flexible way of life and woodworking inadvertently gave that to you…

Sophie Sellu [: 03:06

I sort of never really intended on it going this far, it was just something that… I did it as sort of a therapeutic escape so I sort of tend to say the sort of woodwork I do is very quiet so it's very heavily hand carved. I do have machinery and I do use machinery but the majority of the time it is quiet I'm sat there carving and it is just a repetitive process that you sort of really focus in on and it stops the noise. Yeah, I know quite a few people that have sort of had that shift from really corporate, high-flying jobs and have kind of changed their entire life to have a much slower-paced connection to nature and to sort of connect to the objects that they're making, it's, yeah, it's really lovely.

Tiffany Grant-Riley [: 03:54

So did you…am I right in thinking that you worked in trend forecasting?

Sophie Sellu [: 03:57

Yes so I actually started - so when I graduated university mid-recession we were genuinely sat down and told “good luck it's going to be really difficult for you to get a job in interior design, so it's worth looking at other options” and I lived in Manchester, studied in Manchester and I didn't really want to leave so I just found a retail job, and from that retail job I started doing all their visual merchandising. So that was my sort of hands-on interior styling and that was my sort of way into visual merchandising as a job for a while. I worked for some British brands, some much more smaller independent brands and then I got made redundant..for the first time.

Tiffany Grant-Riley [: 04:42

It's not sounding too great at the moment…

Sophie Sellu [: 04:44

Don't worry, we get there! So yeah, I got made redundant I moved back to London and I managed to get a trend forecasting and concept design job within fashion which sounds amazing on paper and, like, don't get me wrong, I learned so much I met some brilliant people but it was just not what I wanted to do. It was very much sort of like - get back to London, move back in with my parents, find a job. It just…yeah it was it wasn't the office environment wasn't great, it was quite, I mean I'd probably say it was quite toxic and just…

Tiffany Grant-Riley [: 05:17

very corporate…

Sophie Sellu [: 05:20

Yeah…and it just was…you know seeing the same faces every day. I wasn't physically moving a shop around or designing a window, it was very much like “here's a project we're working on, it's two years away when it'll be released, tell us what you can find trend-wise” and it was, yeah, it was very difficult to put all the concepts and the trends together but not see a finished product. It was more handing over your ideas and your research, but I mean, you know, I learned loads I was able to travel quite a bit. And I learned a lot of things that I'm sure I put into my everyday working life but I knew it wasn't what I wanted to be doing and I… my… I needed to do something with my hands. So I just did lots of - actually there's a few of us from university that would (this is very wholesome) but whenever we'd meet up, we'd all go and do a craft course together. So it was like four of us and each person would find a different course every time. So we did all sorts - we did like basket weaving, we did screen printing, we did a paper engineering class once which was amazing. We made these really weird, random, massive paper fish and it was just it was just such a nice thing to do with your friends but it also was just nice to focus on something else rather than going out drinking for the weekend. And you know, you'd learn something.

[There’s a rustling in the background]

Tiffany Grant-Riley [: 06:34

Stanley's just arranging the chair so he can lie down…

Sophie Sellu [: 06:37

(Laughs). But yeah, one of the courses that I went on on my own was a spoon carving course just because I knew I wanted to get back into woodwork but I wasn't sure how. I was thinking about furniture restoration for a long time but I didn't have the space. It was something that I was like - "what can I do just to keep myself busy for the meantime?” and, yeah, I saw a spoon carving course, I think it was in Sussex, literally went down, drove down on my own for the weekend and was just so taken by sitting quietly making something functional within a few hours. I was just like this is great this is so lovely!

Tiffany Grant-Riley [: 07:12

And I think you get that completion as well don't you? You see it as a block of wood and then you see it as a finished product at the end…

Sophie Sellu [: 07:17

And I think I found with a lot of the other courses that we did, so we did a pottery taster course as well and it was like six weeks before I saw the finished thing and I have a very short attention span…

Tiffany Grant-Riley [:

I did one of those…

Sophie Sellu [: 06:33

And it's frustrating isn't it because you're so excited by it but then you just want to show everyone what you've done. I have quite a short attention span anyway and I find that if it doesn't grab me then I just won't do it. I mean, I was terrible at it when I first started it, I was just grabbed by the the repetition, by the objects that you could make and you then use and yeah I think just the the tactile, the tactileness and the difference in sort of tones and variation of the piece you could make with such minimal tools was, yeah I was really drawn by.

Tiffany Grant-Riley [: 08:05

Let's talk about the wood that you work with as sustainability is very much important to how you run Grain and Knot…

Sophie Sellu [: 08:10

Yeah.

Tiffany Grant-Riley [: 08:12

So where do you source your wood from now, say, from when you started? Yeah, so we'll wait for him to settle (referring to her dog, Stanley who is fluffing his bed).

Sophie Sellu [: 08:21

Can you sit down Stan?

So yeah, when I first started I had no idea about where to source wood. I'd sort of go to timber reclamation yards and just find small pieces, or I met a lady on eBay who was selling loads of broken furniture for a fiver and just couldn't believe I wanted to buy all these broken bits of wood. My uncle was also, he was a builder, but he worked on restorations of period properties in South London so I still have some pieces from him actually that I need to use. But timber that had provenance was quite nice to work with because it's like - oh it's from this beautiful old townhouse in Selsdon and it's like, that's cool, like yeah, it was really amazing.

Also the course that I did was very much green woodworking and I knew I didn't want to work with green wood. So green being freshly chopped down, it would take a few weeks to sort of season and within that time it can change the shape and the form of the piece that you've made. So I knew I wanted to work with seasoned timber. It's what I worked with throughout the whole of my woodworking life and yeah, it was something that I just knew more about. So yeah, timber reclamation yards and skips - sometimes, you know, you pass a skip and see a beautiful bit of wood, so a lot of it started off as waste materials. So it was very much from the beginning I knew there was so much out there that was being thrown away and I wanted to make use of it but I guess now I still have a few timber reclamation yards that I go to.

There's a timber merchant that sells just their offcuts from the building materials - that's a lot of the pieces that you can see behind, that's from there. But more importantly is the wood from storm fallen trees. So there's a small pocket of woodlands in Kent and anything that comes down in a storm we can process and use that for objects. So it's making sure that we don't take away too much because we want whatever’s left to be able to rot down and go back into the land and sort of provide for the ecosystem there, but there is so much that comes down, it's kind of it's quite sad really. So it's making use of this really beautiful old tree that has sadly come down.

Tiffany Grant-Riley [: 10:34

Yeah, but I think as well some of that probably comes from forest management as well…I know where we live we do a lot of forest walks and that you're always spotting trees that have been cut down because they're diseased or you know perhaps they're a bit overcrowded so…

Sophie Sellu [: 10:55

Well sadly in the UK we have ash dieback as well, so there's…I think…don't quote me on these numbers but I think it's something like as high as up to 80 percent of ash trees in the UK will be gone in the next 10 years and the numbers are just crazy. So we use a lot of ash as well and one thing with being so close to that process that we can do is if we leave the logs in the forest on the forest floor for an extended period of time, it develops beautiful patterns. So the process of decay which is called ‘spalting’ really adds these really beautiful, unique patterns into the wood and…

Tiffany Grant-Riley [: 11:29

Ahhh I see, the pieces that have the veining running through them…

Sophie Sellu [: 11:32

Yeah and it's all completely different it just adds another dimension to the pieces that I make. And it's something that, you know, we can control and, well, we can encourage it but you never really know what will be on the inside so it's always a really fun process to open up those logs and see what's inside. And it's, yeah, it really kind of inspires the pieces that I make as well because the patterns are so organic and so different that it just, yeah, it's really interesting I think.

Tiffany Grant-Riley [: 12:00

They're absolutely beautiful and just that process is brilliant decay becoming a totally new story in the piece that you're making.

Sophie Sellu [: 12:08

Yeah, you know, we really do work from it from the very beginning.So if, say, a tree has had to come down because it's, you know, it's say it's got a rotting limb overhanging a house, it'll, you know, that we can take down and process it and put it in different parts of the woodland that maybe have more tree cover or more moss growing or it's a lot darker. We have been known to sort of water the logs as well in the sunnier, in the sunnier, the year that we had last year when it was really hot and under a tarp just to kind of encourage that decay and then you can…when it gets to a certain point we'll sort of open the logs up and stop that process they'll go into a wood kiln, it'll dry and then it's completely stable and ready to use. So it really is the beginning part of the process which is exciting.

Tiffany Grant-Riley [: 12:55

So because the wood you use is reclaimed, do you find to some extent that the wood almost dictates you in terms of the project that you're making? So, depending on the quality of the species you're using you might have to maybe take a slightly different tack towards what you're making…am I making sense? (laughs)

Sophie Sellu [: 13:17

Yeah, definitely, I think with the offcuts that we, well, I say “we” buy this sadly the timber yard closed down after 100 years that was in Rochester and it was um it was amazing and it was they cut off the bits that the people didn't want because maybe it was too highly figured or it had some knots in it. So there's some pieces that I've got of walnut that, um, were just sort of the ends that were too highly figured that no one wanted to work with. And they're not the easiest to carve, but they're really beautiful. So it may be not necessarily suitable for some things but suitable for others, so it's definitely dictated in that respect they'd also have a lot of bits with, like, huge cracks running down them and those we buy from them because we can work around the cracks. So it is, yeah, there definitely is a kind of case of what you can and can't do with it and but it is just see what happens go for it but yeah it's just making the most of what we've got and working with the grain and with you know what we can find.

Tiffany Grant-Riley [: 14:17

Can you talk us through the tools that you use when you're carving out a piece?

Sophie Sellu [: 14:27

Yeah, so depending on what I’m making, I usually always cut things out on my bandsaw. So in the corner I've got a bandsaw over there, it's probably one of the only pieces of machinery that I use electric saw…actually that's not true because I sand as well. But, um, so yeah, I'll cut everything down with that and then pretty much straight after that is carving with…I’ve got a Swedish carving knife. I've also got a lot of chisels on the walls - so we've got the chisels and gouges. I use those quite regularly as well but I really do have quite a basic toolkit in here. So in my studio at home, which I should have fully brought to this space but decided to keep this a bit more of a clean environment, so I do have my sort of planer thicknesser if I’m processing timber, I've got a sander, I have another bandsaw there. I have, yeah, different sanding electric sanders, jigsaw gosh - what else? Yeah, I pretty much do have an entire workshop in my sort of small space at home, so it's, um, yeah and then we have the the workspace in the woods because my partner Jack is a woodworker and he sort of manages the woodlands so he has and again we have more machinery in his workshop that I have access to as well - so even even bigger planer thicknesser we've got radial arms, radial arm saw we've got lathes-all sorts, bigger bandsaws, chainsaws. Yeah, so it's not necessarily all done here, but I like to call this the sort of final step even though it is the sort of start and finish of the product. But the beginning process is always in the woods so it's sort of…I see this as the final part of it. But yeah, the carving is a thing that I'm drawn to most and the fact that I can do it with just one or two tools is really satisfying. yeah it's been

Tiffany Grant-Riley [: 16:08

Yeah, it’s been wonderful just to watch you finesse some of the pieces that you're working on have you ever tried anything with charring and heat treatment?

Sophie Sellu [: 16:19

Yes, so I have. My partner Jack who's also a woodworker. He does it quite a lot and I’ve had a go and we've collaborated on a piece, a few pieces before-there's one piece left actually, it's that brush there. Yeah, so it's, um, it's a really fun process but it's also one of those things where you can't go you can't go too far. You've really got to do it like, a little and often, like to say but um I have experimented quite a lot with ebonizing which does give a similar tonal effect but it doesn't give the same definition that you bring out in the woodgrain. But it's something I want to try more of is the charring it's just um probably not safe in here.

Tiffany Grant-Riley [: 17:00

Yeah, definitely not here…

Sophie Sellu [: 17:04

Maybe something to do with this in the woods i'll do that another time but yeah definitely it's um it just yeah the way it brings out the definition in the woodgrain is really beautiful.

Tiffany Grant-Riley [: 17:12

Yeah, just looking at your pieces here and all these beautiful, sweeping, organic shapes, I'd love to know how you translate a design in your head into a finished object.

Sophie Sellu [: 17:23

Yeah, it's, um, I think I always start with very quick, quite crude sketches - like line drawings and I’ve got sketchbooks just full of these shapes and there's no rhyme or reason to them, they really are just like, whatever is in my head. And, you know, I can translate those into - okay that looks like it could be good as a vase, or that's really nice as a sculpture and work from it from there. I think one thing that um I’ve been drawn to most in making is the brushes just because it can fit the boundary of sculptural and functional and that's something that I’ve been, yeah, I've just loved doing. But everything starts as a line drawing. I will then, once I decide what piece I might want to use and the thickness, I'll cut it out into either paper or cardboard sort of translate it into a template, just so that I don't want to cut the wood and then be like oh no that doesn't quite work as a form, so again making sure there's not waste. Yeah, I've got, I mean, drawers full of these, like paper, these paper cutouts of, um, random shapes and yeah, once I've worked that out and got that down, I will then draw it into wood and cut it out and then start with the carving process so it's it's fairly quick I think, um, from sort of you know I don't spend too long like I love sketching but I don't spend too long doing it because I think it's, working it out on paper is much more like as a template is much more important for me and making sure that it feels right as a form and a shape. And then, you know, depending on what piece of timber I can say- actually that doesn't work quite well with that one so I can pull out whatever does work. It also means that I can sort of see what the patterns will look like on the surface and then move the template around accordingly and work out what I can make with the, sort of, the negative space.

Tiffany Grant-Riley [: 19:10

So how long does an average piece take you to carve?

Sophie Sellu [: 19:14

Well, I mean, I’d love to say I knew but I'm so chaotic in the way that I work. I never really work on a piece start to finish in one go, so it could be it could be something…I mean some of my smaller pieces could take 15 minutes - something really little, or something could take five hours, it's really varied. But yeah, I tend to do sort of a few days of carving and then work on, say, something you know doing something else or working on bristling and um I get to a point with my collections that everything will be up to a point where it's pretty much finished and then I’ll finish everything together so it goes through kind of phases. It's not sort of like start to finish each piece but yeah, some some timbers are a lot tougher to carve as well so it would be a case that, you know, it would just be a lot more carving time than I'd like but um, but yeah, it's it's really varied.

Tiffany Grant-Riley [: 20:11

And when you're carving, where does your mind go?

Sophie Sellu [: 20:16

Yeah (laughs). So, um, I actually always have a podcast or something on in the background because it gives me…the carving for me is muscle memory so I don't think about that part of it so if I have a story to follow on with in my ears it would just mean that my brain is connected to the story but then I’m also doing…does that make sense?

Tiffany Grant-Riley [: 20:42

You’re like on autopilot when you’re doing it…

Sophie Sellu [: 20:44

I'm on autopilot when I'm carving so, I mean I won't listen to something with every process but when I'm when I've got a big load of things ready to carve, I will just sit there. It's…yeah, it's very intuitive so it doesn't - and I guess that's just come from years of practice, I say it doesn't need much thought behind it because it definitely does but I find if I don't listen to anything my brain wanders so I'll get distracted easier which…yeah

Tiffany Grant-Riley [: 21:08

Yeah, I guess that makes sense. I will do things like plan a shopping list while I'm shooting something, or I might go over conversations I've had with someone and then fall down a rabbit hole so, yeah, the audio distraction is helpful.

Sophie Sellu [: 21:25

Really helpful. And yeah, I find because, I mean, there's always so much to do in here, I find that if I do find myself flitting around between different things but having lots of different things to work on at once helps. So if I’m struggling with a piece or getting a bit bored with how it feels or how it, you know, because sometimes the texture can be quite sharp or quite rough with something, so if I’m like, “I don't like that, I'll do that in a minute” I’m just - let me do the easier bit first and then move on and then I'll always come back to it. So it's definitely, um, yeah, making things… just putting processes in place that mean I enjoy what I do makes it makes it a lot easier as when there's certain things that I know I'm not going to enjoy I'll always save them up and do them in one go. And there are processes such as sanding - it is my least favourite thing to do, it's dusty, it's loud, um, it's just not…it's just not that sort of quiet, calm, focused woodwork that I enjoy, it's very much the opposite.

Tiffany Grant-Riley [: 22:26

And I think when you’re doing something you love as a career, it's really tricky to find that balance so that you don't end up falling out of love with it

Sophie Sellu [: 22:38

Yeah. Well, it’s work otherwise isn’t it? I don't want to work… I mean I do but I don't yeah it's um

Tiffany Grant-Riley [: 22:43

You don't want it to feel like work…

Sophie Sellu [: 22:45

Yes and I think that's the reason why I do my collections in the way I do, because before I did this I would always have pieces on my website. You know, as soon as one was finished I'd photograph and put it up and it got to the point where I was either at the post office every couple of days or I was working on commissions and it was taking me out of my creative focus. And the sort of admin and the behind-the-scenes stuff took over more than the making and I'm doing this because I enjoy the making. And um, so when I sort of said - okay, well I'm only going to have my shop open four days a year that just gives me time and space to be like right that just means I'll have to spend say a week packaging everything up but I know that that's what I’ve got to do in that week. So it's fine…(it's not fine, I hate it) but it's sort of…it's it's yeah, I sort of clear the space out, I get all the boxes out, it's, everything's there that I need and before when I was doing that, having to sort of go “right! where's my paper? where's my tape?” and doing that every other day was just too it's distracting in a way I guess and it's not the… it's not the sort of, um, the creative zone I want to be in. But then similarly I can find that I'm not in the right frame of mind to be drawing or carving so I'll do something else. So it's sort of working around the enjoyment of doing it really and if I'm sort of really in the zone, I'll do some emails, which is unheard of!

Tiffany Grant-Riley [: 24:14

It's interesting that you talk about how you have seasonal collections. So you're only open for the four days out of the year and I know that you've recently had an ADHD diagnosis. Has that process of having seasonal drops helped you to almost compartmentalise and clear away the mental clutter from, like you say, having to constantly get the boxes out and the tape and go to the post office and come back - does it, has it simplified things for you?

Sophie Sellu [: 24:44

Yeah, absolutely. And I think, I mean, I've always known that there was something going on um… but working on a few jobs last year, I was, I know I need to get this sorted now. I need some advice on it and I've sort of, for the past few years, I've worked in this way anyway, so I was sort of subconsciously, without knowing that I had ADHD, doing the things that would help me. And I knew, okay, it's too much to be doing that all the time, so I'm only going to do it four times a year. But then I can also set myself a deadline which really helps - so I can say “right I'm going to do a summer update, okay so in summer, at some point, I need to have x amount of objects finished so it gives me the space, but then also a deadline at some point and I try not to make things too rigid. I sort of let people know maybe two weeks before but then having that kick up the bum of that two weeks really makes me get everything done, so it is really interesting that it's just sort of happened in that way and that I sort of worked out what worked well for me but then it was like - oh wow, yeah, okay so this is partly, you know, a helping and coping mechanism for ADHD. And sort of, you know, right- clearing out everything and making it so that you just focus on that thing and then move on to the different sort of phases of work. Yeah, it is fascinating and I do sort of hyper focus and sort of fixate on certain elements of working which is really helpful, but then also, um, unhelpfully, I’ll also fixate on things that aren't helpful too, so it's, yeah, it's really just finding that balance and, I mean, working on my own is definitely a helpful part of that because I know I'm quite messy and there's stuff everywhere and it's, I mean, I know everything is sort of...

Tiffany Grant-Riley [: 26:34

It’s organised chaos! Yes absolutely, my studio is the same - I just have stacks of paper and magazines yes yeah yeah

Sophie Sellu [: 26:40

But yeah, it's um, having something to focus on in you know whether it is packing up a parcel or carving a piece it yeah it really does help. And when I…like I said, when I first started doing this it was really something that was quietening the noise in my brain and it made me, you know, almost fixate on the process and just wanting to learn as much as I possibly could about it. And then luckily enough I was able to transfer that to a 10 year long career so far so, it's…I think it's going okay…

Tiffany Grant-Riley [: 27:11

It’s working out pretty well. So as a solo creative, I know that can be quite isolating at times so how do you combat that to feel connected and inspired?

Sophie Sellu [: 27:21

So, um, I think one thing I love doing is visiting other people in their studios obsess about tools and I want to see how stuff's made. Did you ever watch that series called ‘How It's Made’? I feel like it was like late 90s early 2000s and it was just, like, a behind the scenes look at how stuff was made - so it would be like a factory and it would be making contact lenses or biscuits or it was like a really crudely shot…

Tiffany Grant-Riley [: 27:46

I think, um, I think CBeebies did a series when my son was really small called ‘Do You Know?’ (and some parents listening may well know what I'm talking about now) where they'll visit a factory and how something's made and it is really interesting...

Sophie Sellu [: 28:04

So interesting, so whether that's someone painting or like a seamstress or even a woodworker who works in a different way to me - it fascinates me so I’m always trying to visit others.

I think one of the reasons why I love Instagram is because there's such an amazing community of people that are sharing their journey and how they make, but then people are often on their own so they are quite open to conversations. And I've made some really good friends through Instagram and, um, sort of having a community that way but just making sure I visit exhibitions and try and see people in person as much as I can. I think there was a point…and one of the reasons why I not only did I outgrow my studio at home but I sort of was - I really want a space where I can invite people in more because just having conversations even if I don't visit someone's, someone comes here being able to show someone my work in person and they sort of, you know, their reaction to it is really rewarding, yeah.

That's a bit, not selfish, it's a bit sort of like, I don't know, it's like, self-congratulatory, but it's very much sort of like, oh right, okay, well I wasn't sure on that, but you've come in and you really love that, so it's sort of me like oh, maybe I should do more of those, or maybe I should, you know. I get into a bit of a rut of like, “this isn't good enough, I need to be working harder, yeah, improving my skills on this”, but then actually when I have an open studio or a market or something and people really respond to something I've made, it almost makes it worth the stress of the sort of, yeah, telling yourself it's not good, but which isn't healthy, I know, but it's not.

Tiffany Grant-Riley [: 29:46

It's something we all do though, and the thing is, we do what we do well and we beat ourselves up about it all the time, but then there are people out there who maybe can't do what we do, or don't want to do what we do, but very much love it, love the product.

Sophie Sellu [: 30:03

I think that's the same with me visiting other people's studios, is that, you know, I love and respect what they do, and I wouldn't…I'd want to give it a go, but I wouldn't want to do it as a career, and I'm just so fascinated by the process, so learning about other people's processes, yeah, it's exciting. And then whenever I come back I'm like, I get almost like, “okay, yeah, right, so they had this amazing tool wall, or they had this really cool thing to store their fabrics”, and that sort of gives me ideas for how I can relate that to my work, and yeah, it's a bit sort of, it's quite childlike almost, like this sort of excitement I get when I visit places like that, it's really cool.

Tiffany Grant-Riley [: 30:40

No, I love that, because you want to feel like that, yeah, when you're feeling inspired.

Sophie Sellu [: 30:45

Yeah, but yeah, it really can be isolating, and I think at the beginning of Instagram it was really helpful, because there would be so many people that you could talk to, and it was very much a place of sharing and learning, and it sort of has shifted over the years, which is a shame. It's sort of, now it seems to be making content for the sake of it, whereas before it wasn't, so it's sort of trying to get back to grips with that kind of community, but then also in the past, and we stopped doing it because of the pandemic, we've put on like a woodworking showcase, where we bring together, we brought together, say, 20 different woodworkers, and showcase the sort of variation of their work, and it was incredible, because a lot of those people, like me, work on their own, and it was a place to bring everyone together, and share tips, ideas, and just sort of, yeah, really get inspired by each other's work.

So hopefully, there's talks at the moment, hopefully in the next year or so, we'll do something with some others, but yeah, we'll get there.

Tiffany Grant-Riley [: 31:46

Well, we heard it here first! You've had several iterations of studio space since you started, including your parents garage. Do you feel like this space in New Cross is ticking all the boxes, or do you have plans to expand or move again?

Sophie Sellu [: 32:02

I am feeling very settled here, I do really love it, but I feel like I've outgrown it already. I mean, studio space in London is just so expensive. I feel like this is great, and will be great for the next few years here, but I would love to be able to make furniture, and have the space to store it for a while, I just, it's just not big enough in here to do that.

But I know I'm really happy with it at the moment, it's got brilliant light, there's like so much storage space, and the fact that it is also a shop unit, it's accessible for people to come and visit. It's big enough to host sort of events, small events, workshops, but yeah, ideally I'd have, you know, double this (laughs). But at the moment, it is, yeah, it is ticking the boxes. I really love it here, actually get really excited every time I come in. It's definitely quite a calming, other than the noise, calming environment to be in, but if I've got headphones in, it's fine. But yeah, it has got everything I need at the moment, but me and my partner had spoken about moving to Kent, and being a bit closer to...

Tiffany Grant-Riley [: 33:04

Come out to Kent!

Sophie Sellu [: 33:06

Yeah, I mean...

Tiffany Grant-Riley [: 33:07

Come and do it!

Sophie Sellu [: 33:09

The thing is, the woodlands aren't going anywhere, we always have that access to it, and actually it's really nice to come back. It's nice to go to both, so when you get a bit sort of like, oh, London is really quite stressful, nice to spend the weekend in Kent, but similarly, it's so secluded there that it is so nice to come back to London and have that sort of vibe. You get that sort of excitement, and the closeness to people, I do forget how much I do need that.

Tiffany Grant-Riley [: 33:33

I know what you mean. I'm in quite a big town in Kent though, so I feel like I have that urban side, But we're also less than a minute walk from countryside.

Sophie Sellu [: 33:45

Yeah, so nice, that sounds like the best of both.

Tiffany Grant-Riley [: 33:47

The best of both. And then on the train in 40 minutes, I'm at St Pancras.

Sophie Sellu [: 33:50

What more could you want?

Tiffany Grant-Riley [: 33:53

Well, actually what I want is to move to Copenhagen, but we won't talk about that.

Sophie Sellu [: 33:59

Expensive…

Tiffany Grant-Riley [: 34:00

I know, right? I'm working on it.

Sophie Sellu [: 34:04

Exciting. But even the woodlands is only about a 40 minute drive from here, so it's really not too bad, it's just sort of managing the time between London and Kent and having the best of both, really.

Tiffany Grant-Riley [: 34:15

Yeah, I understand that.

How would you say that your style has evolved since you first started graining knot?

Sophie Sellu [: 34:26

So, when I first started, I was very much a spoon carver. That's what I had learnt, and that's what I was doing. I just really enjoyed making functional pieces. I think that was my main focus for a really long time. I taught a lot of carving workshops, I did quite, just kitchenware in general was very much my focus. And because I was teaching carving for so long, it stayed my focus.

And I was trying to branch out into doing other things, but I'd almost pigeonholed myself into this one specific thing. And I stopped carving for various reasons, a lot of them due to anxiety, and just using sharp tools and people hurting themselves, sort of really, not that it would happen every time, but there's always the risk of injury. And also just the fact that, again, it was taking me out of my creative space. So I would say, I'd have two workshops on a Saturday, I'd spend Friday - all of Friday, and maybe some of Thursday, you know, prepping for this one work, these two workshops. It just took so much of my focus away from creating what I wanted. So I took the - I think was quite bold at the time, didn't really have much to fall back on in terms of financially - I just took the decision to stop teaching and just to focus on my own creative journey. And I'm so glad I did.

The timing worked out so well, it was maybe 18 months before the pandemic. So I was able to sort of set myself up in a more sculptural space and sort of started focusing more on objects. So the vases, the bud vases came from all the offcuts that I had from my kitchenware. And they were very tiny to begin with. And people loved them. And I mean, I loved making something different. And I could explore form a lot more than I could with, you know, cooking utensils and tableware. And from there, it's very much evolved to more sort of sculptural pieces, wall pieces. But then having the function in some of them as well, it's still, it's definitely still there. But I quite like the mixture of the two now. And just much more organic shapes and textures. There's just more space to explore with the pieces I'm doing now than there was before. But yeah, just so much more space to explore and work on scale as well.

It's always something I've wanted to sort of scale things up a bit and make things that were very much more for display. And that were always out rather than say, if you're cooking and your spoon goes away, then that's kind of hidden. So I wanted things to be much more visible than they were before.

Tiffany Grant-Riley [: 36:56

Yeah, I'm noticing your gorgeously tactile handle collection. So are these going to become a regular feature?

Sophie Sellu [: 37:05

Yes, I would really like to, I'm still working out some of the sort of finer details of them, such as like where to drill the holes and the spacing of them. And yeah, they are very much, I'm calling them door ornaments.

Tiffany Grant-Riley [: 37:15

I just love them.

Sophie Sell [: 37:17

I think it just, it's again, it just brings a playful element. I mean, these are just IKEA cabinets that I've had in my sort of previous studios, and I wanted to make them just a bit more exciting. But the fact that they can all be different, they really do sort of draw you in, you really want to touch them and they've all got different texture and different shapes.

So it's definitely something I'm working on. So they should be available soon. But I'm going to launch some just in a really small, limited run for my summer, maybe autumn collection.

Tiffany Grant-Riley [: 37:43

And the wall sculptures as well. Just really lovely to see some of your pieces on a larger scale.

Sophie Sellu [: 37:51

Yeah, and they're getting bigger than this as well. I'm really excited. I'm working on an exhibition, a group exhibition that someone else has curated, and I'm trying to get some really big pieces made for that. But I think I've, I mean, I've always just had a really tiny workshop. So the wall space has become somewhere to put things. So I've got sort of elements of it here.

But in my small space that I had at home, it was tiny, and it was really narrow. So I had stuff all the way up because that was the only place I had to display. So being able to sort of work on that and turn things, you know, more sculptural and actually make more specific pieces that can stand alone, or be amongst pictures, that's kind of the, like, you know, like a beautiful picture wall, like with loads, amongst loads of different art, I can really see one of my pieces in that.

Tiffany Grant-Riley [: 38:39

Yeah, I could, totally.

Sophie Sellu [: 38:40

So I've got, I don't know why I don't make more of them, to be honest, and sell them because I've got them at home. And I've got sort of groupings of different wall pieces at home, and people always respond to them quite well.

Tiffany Grant-Riley [: 38:50

I was looking at your Instagram the other day, and I noticed a bit of a common thread with some of your captions…

Sophie Sellu [: 38:56

Yep. Oh no, that's something I've not noticed. What is it?

Tiffany Grant-Riley [: 39:01

I was just thinking that it's quite a creative's trait to feel guilty about having downtime…

Sophie Sellu [: 39:07

Oh, yeah.

Tiffany Grant-Riley [: 39:09

And given that you talk about it quite a bit, have you worked out how to move past that?

Sophie Sellu [: 39:14

It's funny, because I actually do work a lot. It's just, I think I'm still struggling with the - when I had a studio at home, my studio was always there. So whatever I was doing, I could nip in and out, even if it was 20 minutes of something, I was still working. But because I have to make the 30 minute journey to come here, it seems like much more of an effort. But I do still try and, you know, stay present, stay focused in what I'm doing here. But yeah, I think I've always struggled with it.

I mean, I think I just feel like I should always be doing something. But then if I'm not physically making, I'm thinking about it. So it's always...

Tiffany Grant-Riley [: 39:51

I'm the same.

Sophie Sellu [: 39:33

It's tough, isn't it?

Tiffany Grant-Riley [: 39:54

I'm the same. My studio is in my house, it's behind our kitchen. And I'm more strict with my working hours now. But there is always that temptation of, oh, I'll just do this for a minute, or I'll just test this. And then, yeah, I'm thinking about it all the time.

Sophie Sellu [: 40:13

I think if I, you know, if I had a, when I had a office job, and I was, these are the hours that you're working, but then you would stop at the end of the day, and that would be it. Whereas that doesn't happen. So say, normally, my studio hours can be, say, I'll do admin, this is the thing I do, admin at home in the morning, I'll go out for a dog walk, I'll get I'll have lunch at home, and then I'll get here for, say, 12. And I'll stay till eight or nine. So it's like, I am here a long time. That's maybe only three, three days a week, four days a week. But then those days a week, I'm at home, I'm doing stuff at home. So, so I think it is, it is just, it's just me. I think my parents both have a very strong work ethic. And I've definitely picked that up. And yeah, I do also get bored quite easily. So I feel like now I don't have as much to studio stuff at home. I'm like, I wish that was there. So I could just pick that up and go into it. But yeah, it's so physical.

I do have to stop because it really is, you know, sore on my hands and my body. So it's, it's just a case of either doing ideas for content, ideas for projects, work, admin. And that's all stuff I can do at home. So it's, yeah, it's never ending, to be honest.

Tiffany Grant-Riley [: 41:24

Do you ever get a nice hand massage?

Sophie Sellu [: 41:25

Every now and again, but...

Tiffany Grant-Riley [: 41:27

Just keep those muscles nice and lithe.

Sophie Sellu [: 41:30

Every now and again. It's important to sort of, yeah, take breaks. So tomorrow, I'm no tools allowed day.

Tiffany Grant-Riley [: 41:36

Oh, good.

Sophie Sellu [: 41:37

So yeah, it does. But then also, I think, you know, when we go to the woods, even even though it feels like a day off, we're still working. I think it's, yeah.

Tiffany Grant-Riley [: 41:49

Yeah, you're thinking about that looks good. I could use that. Yeah.

Sophie Sellu [: 41:52

I think there's the hate side of social media is that always comparing yourself to others and seeing how “busy”, in air quotes, busy people are. And it can be, I mean, I've done some mentoring before. And I always say to people, it's not real. And I need to take my own advice because I do it as well. Sometimes, you know, say I'll post loads of content I've taken like a month ago, and it doesn't necessarily mean I'm doing it now. But you forget that for other people.

So you'll see people's things like, oh, they're doing loads, they're working on this project, they're working on that project. But actually, it could be from a year ago. So it's, it's sort of like false to think that people are always doing things.

But I just always am. I just always wanted to do as best as I can, to be honest, I think I'm, I'm always wanting to do better, I can always learn more. And I think having that pressure on myself is good and bad. It makes me want to progress, but it also makes me not lazy with it.

Tiffany Grant-Riley [: 42:48

Yeah.

Sophie Sellu [: 42:49

So I'm sort of like, you know, and I do, you know, really proud of what I've achieved. And I think I've got a list. This is - I tell my friends to do this as well. My creative friends. I have a list at home of all the amazing things I've done. And every time you get into a bit of a slump of like, what am I doing? Why am I doing this? I'll go back to that list and be like, wow, okay, that's pretty good.

Tiffany Grant-Riley [: 43:08

That is such a brilliant idea to make a list of all the amazing things you've done.

Sophie Sellu [: 43:12

Because with ADHD, there's a lot of rejection sensitivity. So say, for example, I don't, you know, someone does ask me to do a commission for them, and I get really far down the line, and they say, actually, we've changed our mind. Or, you know, I see someone else doing a job or something that I would have really loved to do it, I get so frustrated, but that makes me drive to want to do it more. So I think that's a lot of a lot of it as well is the sort of underlying fact that my brain just works in a different way. And I don't like to be, I just don't like to be not doing anything. I'm just always like itching to do something, learn something or yeah, so it's, it's good, but it's also very stressful and tiring at the same time.

Tiffany Grant-Riley [: 43:52

So when you are relaxing, is there a space or interior that you absolutely love spending time in?

Sophie Sellu [: 44:01

I mean, being outside is a huge part of my life. I've always so unconsciously until I sort of think back on it, sort out those sort of outdoor spaces in London, there's some really beautiful part, green parts of London that people just don't know exist. So actually, one of them is indoors, but it's outdoors. It's definitely outdoors. Do you know St Dunstan in the East?

Tiffany Grant-Riley [: 44:22

I do, yes!

Sophie Sellu [: 44:23

Incredible.

Tiffany Grant-Riley [: 44:24

Yes! Um…The derelict church…

Sophie Sellu [: 44:25

Yes, it was bombed. I think it was, it's been destroyed a few times in World War Two. Recently. I think it was a Christopher Wren redesign. And it is amazing.

Tiffany Grant-Riley [: 44:37

It's stunning.

Sophie Sellu [: 44:38

You just sort of come across in the centre of London, there's all these tower buildings, it's right near Monument Station. And then all of a sudden, you're in this sort of like oasis of, it's just honestly, that is one of my favourite spots. I think places like that I'm always really inspired by like, I love Kew Gardens, I love glasshouses in general, I think I'm really love growing my own food and vegetables and seeing how, again, it's going back to seeing how stuff's made, isn't it?

Tiffany Grant-Riley [: 45:04

Yeah, absolutely.

Sophie Sellu [: 45:06

But getting that behind the scenes look, I do also love Water Lane in Kent, which is just a bit further out because they have all the glass houses. And I love a walled kitchen garden.

Tiffany Grant-Riley [: 45:15

Same.

Sophie Sellu [: 45:16

Being able to visit the manor house, then see the gardens and yeah, Water Lane is such a beautiful spot. Because it is kind of, you know, beautiful country lanes to get there. And they serve incredible food. And it's just done so well. And so respectfully of the building.

Tiffany Grant-Riley [: 45:33

Yeah, the restored glasshouses are really quite something.

Sophie Sellu [: 45:40

So impressive.But yeah, I mean, that's kind of sums me up, doesn't it? Sort of inside but outside. It's not necessarily an interior, but elements of an interior.

Tiffany Grant-Riley [: 45:47

Very much. Do you have a piece of advice or something that you've learned to help the listeners who are exploring their own creativity or perhaps thinking about going out and starting their own business?

Sophie Sellu [: 46:00

I think start small. I think some people often throw loads of money, if they have it, when sort of building a website or doing, you know, I've seen it a few times with some people that I've known and it's, you don't need to, it doesn't need to be all bells and whistles. I think start, you know, have a really strong product or idea and work from there.

Really explore your own creativity and what you want from it and why you're doing it. Because I think I've seen people that have seen what someone else is doing and going, “I could do that. I'm gonna do that”. And it's like, yeah, but you need to learn how to do it. You need to come up with your own concepts and ideas. You need to learn the skills. You need to do all of that, because you haven't seen that person's failures to get to that point. And I think that, you know, I've had lots of failures in my career and my woodworking journey. And just in general, I think it's really important to learn what works and what doesn't work. And, you know, like I said, social media can be so fake sometimes, because you don't see that. So I think it's really important to sort of, you know, have that entire process and not to be too disheartened by it, because it is, it's part of it. And, you know, celebrate the wins when you do get them.

And, but yeah, I think starting small, doing as much of it as you can, rope in that friend that's a photographer, build your website yourself. There's so many platforms that you can do it so cheaply and have really beautiful websites. I still use Squarespace for mine.

I haven't built my own.

Tiffany Grant-Riley [: 47:23

Yeah, I'm using Squarespace now.

Sophie Sellu [: 47:24

It's so good.

Tiffany Grant-Riley [: 47:25

I love it.

Sophie Sellu [: 47:26

One thing I started, I mean, it really depends what they're doing. But one thing I started doing when I first started was just trying to build a community as well. And I think collaboration is really important when you're first starting out. So having, you know, like minded individuals that may be at the same starting level or starting point as you are, working together on projects can be really exciting to sort of broaden the sort of viewership of what you're doing. Just yeah, I mean, I think also as well, even though there's can be a lot of failures, just have fun with it.

I mean, you've got to do it, you're doing it for a reason, if it's something that you really love. And it's, you know, it is very rewarding. So you do have those rewarding moments. It's sort of like, oh, I did that. Sometimes every now and again, I'll sort of like, God, I did all that. Like, it's so good on you.

Tiffany Grant-Riley [: 48:09

Yeah! Remember that you worked hard!

Sophie Sellu [: 48:12

Yeah. And you know, there's a reason behind why you've done it. So just, just keep going.

Tiffany Grant-Riley [: 48:17

I couldn't not ask whether as a mixed-race female creative, you've come across any tokenism or perhaps experiences of being overlooked, whether that's in the woodworking community or in the wider design industry?

Sophie Sellu [: 48:31

Yeah, it's an interesting one. I think, again, I kind of did this subconsciously. But I feel like in the back of my head, I always knew the reason why I did it. But when I first started Grain and Knot, it was very much just the pictures of my imagery. No one knew that I was female. And no one knew that I was mixed-race.

So I very much was like, I just want it to be about the product. And I would get emails or say, if I was at a market, and I had a white male friend who was there, they just assume it was him.

Tiffany Grant-Riley [: 49:01

Wow.

Sophie Sellu [: 49:02

And it was, it actually makes me laugh that it's just, it's just so funny. And people couldn't believe, number one, that a female was doing it. But then also, there's just no one, there wasn't anyone that I knew of then, when I started 10, 11 years ago that looked like me who was doing what I was doing. So it was always quite, it has definitely been quite difficult and quite challenging. I think what I find the most challenging now is when I'm part of a show, because of who I am, and because I'm mixed-race, or because I'm their token diversity that I do really struggle with. And there have been jobs that have turned down because of that.

And I think it's, it's really difficult, because on the one hand, I do want to be visible as someone who is showing other young mixed-race women what you can do.

Tiffany Grant-Riley [: 49:50

Absolutely.

Sophie Sellu [: 49:52

But then it's also a lot of weight to sort of say, well, why am I the only person? And sort of, you know, there's been, someone was writing an article once, and they said, “can you suggest other people that we could speak to?” And it's like, that's not my job.

Tiffany Grant-Riley [: 50:03

No.

Sophie Sellu [: 50:04

I mean, I'm, I will happily do it. And I have supported people in lots of different ways. But the way that this person worded it particularly was, well, because of who you are, you should, you know, and it's like…

Tiffany Grant-Riley [: 50:15

I just find that hilarious.

Sophie Sellu [: 50:16

Yeah…

Tiffany Grant-Riley [: 50:17

I really do.

Sophie Sellu [: 50:18

I think I mean, even, even when I was learning more as an adult, I did lots of sort of different woodworking courses. So I'd never learned to turn when I was younger, I did a few little joinery pieces here and there. And I did a lot more learning from people. And it was always an older white man in his shed or in his, you know, in like a college or something. It was that was just always the demographic of person that was teaching or that was on the courses. So it was, I definitely did feel out of place. But I feel like I've got my own niche of what I'm doing now. And I don't think there's anyone doing what I'm doing in the way I'm doing it. And, you know, it's so much better to have, you know, your own space within a wider field of, say, woodwork or craft.

But I think there's just, yeah, there's just much more visibility now. And I think people are much more conscious of it, which is great. But I think it is also just extremely tiring, when you're the only person that is visible.

Tiffany Grant-Riley [: 51:19

Partly why I started this podcast was that I don't see many other stylists and photographers who look like me, let's say, whether it's at London Design Week, or 3daysofdesign in Copenhagen, as much as I love that event in the city, there's still a lot more work to do. And I want for other people of colour, younger, to be able to see these examples and say, “Oh, okay, well, that's that's a possibility for me, I could do that, or I could do that...”

Sophie Sellu [: 51:53

I also think that having parents that aren't from the UK, they have a very different understanding of what work is, or they did. So when I first explained to my my dad in particular was just he was worried that this wasn't going to be a viable job for me. And I did almost want to prove him wrong and say, you know, this is, this can work. But I see that with so many different people from so many different, you know, walks of life, where it's just not something that is quantified as success. In the arts, it's very much okay, well, we see a successful person as a doctor, a lawyer, you know, something that they understand as success. And it's really interesting, sort of the conversations I've had with my my family and the way things have shifted and the things they've seen me do. They totally get it now and are so supportive and understanding, but they were just so worried at the beginning that, I mean, for just normal parent reasons, how are you going to pay your bills and do this, but also they just hadn't seen it. And I think we're very much of the social media generation where we have seen it. And we've seen people doing it.

And it makes sense. But for them not having Instagram and not understanding that that could work is Yeah it was so interesting to sort of see that kind of the shift and…

Tiffany Grant-Riley [: 53:07

Yeah, that cultural difference and generational difference as well...

Sophie Sellu [: 53:12

The generational difference, I think, is huge. You know, going from completely not online to everything online in literally a, you know, one generation, two generations is is quite crazy. But it's, it's just Yeah, it's just really interesting. And my both my parents are on Instagram now and like...

Tiffany Grant-Riley [: 53:28

Oh, fantastic.

Sophie Sellu [: 53:29

Yeah, it's very sweet.

Tiffany Grant-Riley [: 53:30

I’ll have to find them…

Sophie Sellu [: 53:32

Yeah, they don't post, they just stalk...(laughs)

Tiffany Grant-Riley [: 53:36

Music is a huge part of my own creative process. And I'm always intrigued to know what other people are listening to while they're working…

Sophie Sellu [: 53:44

Yeah…

Tiffany Grant-Riley [: 53:45

So in addition to the podcast, I'm putting together a playlist to share at the end of this season. What four essential tracks would you put on a mixtape to motivate you when you're in your studio?

Sophie Sellu [: 53:56

I have a few artists that I kind of go to quite a lot. I can never say this one I'm gonna have to ask you. I love Greentea Peng.

Tiffany Grant-Riley [: 54:05

Yes!

Sophie Sellu [: 54:06

It's very sort of soulful, slow, but there's a lot of meaning behind it. Really love her. And I've seen her live a couple of times. And she's just she's just amazing. Like, completely covered in tattoos, piercings on her face, like just, you know, you just look at someone and then she just knows exactly who she is. Obsessed with her. I love ummm…

Tiffany Grant-Riley [: 54: 26

Which track?

Sophie Sellu [: 54:29

Oh, I've got to choose one specific? I really love ‘Downers’. I think that's a really good one. And a more upbeat one would be Mr. Sun, I think. Yeah. People like, I mean, I listen to a lot of Lil Simz and Cleo Sol. Oh, I'm gonna have to, I'll get a list.

Tiffany Grant-Riley [: 54:47

Yeah, we need to be friends…

Sophie Sellu [: 54:48

It's just quite slow and soulful. But I think when I'm working, that's the sort of vibe I'm, I'm after. Nothing that's going to distract me too much. But that's sort of, yeah. But then other than that, when I'm working, it's very much story to follow along with. Otherwise, I get, I get lost in the music.

Tiffany Grant-Riley [: 55:07

But what's the one you couldn't pronounce?

Sophie Sellu [: 55:08

Oh, it begins with a K…errrrrr…

Tiffany Grant-Riley [: 55:11

Khruangbin.

Sophie Sellu [: 55:12

Yes, that's the one. Yeah, that's it. I think I always see it written down and I never know how to say it. Yeah, I think it is. Anyway, Khruangbin. That's very much a, if I have an open studio, I put on Spotify, you know, they have their like, radio.

Tiffany Grant-Riley [: 55:30

Yeah.

Sophie Sellu [: 55:31

And it's like the similar stuff to that. I always put that on because it's just easy. I'm like…

Tiffany Grant-Riley [: 55:34

Yeah, they're so chilled. Their Glastonbury set they did last summer (2022) was gorgeous.

Sophie Sellu [: 55:41

Okay, I'm gonna have to listen back to that.

Tiffany Grant-Riley [: 55:43

Yeah. Well worth it.

Sophie Sellu [: 55:45

The sort of thing that you could imagine, you know, even would do well sat with a barbecue with friends just talking nothing too loud.

Tiffany Grant-Riley [: 55:51

Mid-tempo. Yeah.

Sophie Sellu [: 55:53

Yeah…It’s almost sort of stuff that not fades into the background, but you're not sort of overwhelmed by it, which is quite nice for me. It's not too much of a sensory overload. It is just very chill.

Tiffany Grant-Riley [: 56:03

Oh, brilliant. That's a fantastic selection! And thank you again, Sophie, for inviting me into your incredibly beautiful studio and just sitting down and talking to me about your process.

Sophie Sellu [: 56:16

Thank you for coming. Thanks for having me on the podcast.

Tiffany Grant-Riley [: OUTRO

Sophie sells a limited number of hand-carved pieces each quarter at grainandknot.com. Follow Sophie on Instagram @grainandknot for behind the scenes with Stanley in her studio and new collection launch dates.

Curate and Display the podcast is produced by Tiffany Grant-Riley with music and production by Rob Riley. To continue the conversation, find me on Instagram @curatedisplay or head to the show notes page on curateanddisplay.co.uk